All Things Mediation, with Karen Juster Hecht
How does mediation work? Are there certain disputes that mediation can help with? In this episode of I Know a Lawyer, I speak with Karen Juster Hecht about her mediation practice and how mediation works. In the show, Karen discusses:
How mediation works
Types of mediation
Benefits of mediation
Challenges/disadvantages
Mediation in a pandemic
Why mediation is relevant today
Thank you to Karen Juster Hecht for joining the show. I hope you learned more about mediation and its place through our discussion. Contact Karen via her website or call her at 510-210-3796.
As always, this podcast is brought to you by McKenna Brink Signorotti LLP, located in Walnut Creek. Check out our website at mckennabrink.com. The podcast is not intended to provide legal advice. Consult an attorney for legal advice, not a podcast.
Transcript
Ryan Lockhart (00:01):
Happy 2021. Everyone. Welcome to, I know a lawyer. I know in our last episode of 2020, I mentioned we were expanding the podcast we are, but it has been delayed just a bit. So the expansion and rebranding of the podcast will happen closer to the end of the month. So for this episode, we are still, I know a lawyer, the show is brought to you by McKenna Brink Signorotti, LLP, a boutique law firm in Walnut Creek, California. Check us out at mckennabrink.com for details of our legal services. As always all episodes of, I know a lawyer are found on our website or on your major podcasting apps, such as Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, et cetera. If you enjoy the show, hit the subscribe button on your podcasting app. So you don't miss out on any future episodes. All right, today I am joined by Karen Juster Hecht, a private mediator. Karen is here to talk to us today about all things mediation. How are you today, Karen?
Karen Juster Hecht (00:57):
Hey Ryan. I'm doing pretty well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about mediation.
Ryan Lockhart (01:05):
Great. why don't you tell a little bit, the audience a little bit about yourself and your background.
Karen Juster Hecht (01:10):
I didn't start out my legal career as a mediator. In fact, I was a litigator for many years, a variety of cases, big small construction, personal injury business cases. And after a while I noticed a trend that I was steering my clients toward mediation or some other form of alternative dispute resolution. And at some point a few years back, it hit me, Oh, the way that I could best serve people, the way that I could best use my legal talents was to train as a mediator and practice mediation. I had an awesome training with the center for understanding and conflict. The, the lead the person who started that center, Gary Friedman was one of the first mediators in California. And when he first started mediating, actually, apparently the state bar contacted him several times to say, Hey, you can't represent two people at once. So anyway, it was, it was a great entry for me into mediation. And my practice now is almost exclusively mediation.
Ryan Lockhart (02:18):
No, that's great. I know it's a, definitely a growing area is probably an understatement because it's now it's even being required in many instances. So let's just talk about how mediations work, because I've only been really a part of maybe one mediation. So if you just kind of walk us through what, what does a typical mediation look like?
Karen Juster Hecht (02:34):
So you know, I have to say like, like many attorneys want to hear the word typical. I want to come up with all sorts of exceptions to why it's not typical, but that being said, you know, there are some basics and you know, we can take a look at what a basic family law mediation would look like. So the first step is that usually one spouse will contact me and we have the conversation maybe a little bit about going on in their situation. We talk a little bit basics about family law and we talk about mediation and what that process might look like. Then the next step would be the other spouse would contact me. We have a real similar conversation and I make it clear to both sides that as a mediator, I'm not there for one person or the other. I'm really there for both of them.
Karen Juster Hecht (03:23):
That is something that is a really it's a really basic component of mediation. So after we have these first contacts, then we'll have the first meeting where I go over the mediation ground rules. And for me, I really only have two basic ground rules. So one is that while we are in the mediation process, both parties agree that they're not going to file anything in court or take any other action that might potentially harm the other person. And then my other ground rule is just respectful communication. And respectful communication really can run the gamut because, you know, Ryan, I've had some people who come into my office and their method that's comfortable for them to communicate is yelling. And if that works through them, you know, I try to kind of control the situation so that they're both listening to each other, but if that works for them, then, then that's what we do. In the, I, do you have questions about that?
Ryan Lockhart (04:29):
No, I just, you're talking about husband and wife, is, is there different types of mediations for different situations?
Karen Juster Hecht (04:38):
The kind of mediation that, that I have been trained in, and that makes a lot of sense to me is where everyone's in the same room and we do what I call a deep dive. And so it's all based on communication and which is why, you know, background rule about respectful communication and respectful listening. And so as a mediator, one of my chief roles is to help the parties express what they need to express, whether it's, you know, concerns they have, for example, in a family law situation about money or about being with the kids, or, you know, these are the general hot buttons, of course, in family law mediation. And so I, the work with the parties in the same room and we discuss this and we do a deep dive until we get to the bottom of, of really what's bothering them and making sure that the other person can hear them. So there are other forms of mediation, some mediators use what's called caucusing where one party is in one room, the other parties in the other room and the mediator goes back and forth and is a communicator in general. I, that's not the type of mediation that I do.
Ryan Lockhart (05:55):
I think the thing that the one I was involved in, it was a caucusing type kind of strange it a little bit, but anyways what kind of disputes are, are good candidates for a mediation?
Karen Juster Hecht (06:06):
Well, I, you know, I think that really any dispute is, is amenable. The, the bottom line is as long as the people involved, agreed to that, they're going to commit to trying mediation, mediation can work. And so, you know, family law contract, community disputes really, you know, any kind of dispute and I'm a huge proponent of mediation. So, so it would be, I would be hard pressed to say, Oh yeah, that's not going to work. On the other hand, I know that sometimes I've never had a mediation fall apart, but I do know mediators who, you know, they they'll have a number of sessions and it doesn't work and, and that matter has to end up in court.
Ryan Lockhart (06:55):
Yeah. Sounds like you have to have two willing sides.
Karen Juster Hecht (06:58):
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. That gets back to, you know, what, I, I often tell people the only thing they have to agree on at the outset is that they want their, they want to try mediation. They're, they're there to really give it an honest go.
Ryan Lockhart (07:13):
Hmm. That's good. What would be some of the benefits of mediation versus maybe some other alternative dispute resolution techniques?
Karen Juster Hecht (07:22):
Well, well, yeah, that's a good question. So I have to say, you know, I I'm answering from the perspective of a mediator. And so I'm, I'm biased about that. I know most about the, those techniques and as opposed to other, you know, ADR techniques. So, you know, mediation really, I think, gets to the heart of the issue, right? So it allows people to sort of uncover that piece of glass that's in the bottom of their foot, so that then they feel better about it. Right? I mean, sometimes the process to get there could be painful, but once they get to the bottom of that issue and they feel that the other person has heard them and, and they have some acknowledgement about that. And then they both can work together, you know, with the help of the mediator to forge a solution going forward.
Karen Juster Hecht (08:15):
Then I think there's a better, there's better. Buy-In, you know, it's, it's like if you have little kids and you're trying to get them to do something, and when my kids were young, you know, I employed this method a lot where you want people to be able to feel that they own it. Right. And so if they're a part of the, the resolution process, which can happen in mediation, I mean, that's what mediation is all about then that really leads to lasting agreements. Mediation is also, you know, if you compare it to litigation mediation is usually way less costly. I, you know, you want the, I could go on about more benefits if, if you want me to
Ryan Lockhart (09:04):
No, that's good. I mean, I think what you just said really kind of set something off in me. It sounds like it's more, there's this component of the mediation process. It sounds like I can honest discovery process. Like we're, they're actually getting to the root causes of the dispute where, you know, the formal discovery process doesn't really lend itself to that. I don't think sometimes.
Karen Juster Hecht (09:26):
Right. Yeah. Except that that's exactly spot on of you to say that. And I do feel, you know, getting to the root of things. That's kind of my analogy about, you know, the glass in the bottom of the foot. So if you have a piece of glass in the bottom of the foot and you don't take it out, well, you can keep walking, but somewhere down the road, right. It's going to reappear that scar tissue is going to build up. It's going to make it hard to walk and, and same with issues, right. If they, if you don't really dissect the issues and get to the bottom of it and resolve it, it's going to come up again. So yeah, mediation really lends itself to that kind of resolution.
Ryan Lockhart (10:06):
So what would be some of the pitfalls or difficulties with it with mediation?
Karen Juster Hecht (10:11):
Well a downside of mediation for sure, is that unlike a judge the mediator has no authority to order a party to do something, right. So if, if there's really a loggerhead, I can't say, Oh, but you must do this. You know, I can just try to use my communication skills to convince someone maybe to, to be forthcoming about something, but I can't order it. And so even though, as I think I mentioned, you know, I'm really fortunate in that I've never had a mediation fall apart on me. It can. Right. And, and, and so if the mediation doesn't work, then the parties are gonna have to end up in court anyway. So that would definitely be a downside.
Ryan Lockhart (10:58):
What's how long is that typical mediation?
Karen Juster Hecht (11:01):
So when you say, how long do you mean, like how many sessions or how long does each session last?
Ryan Lockhart (11:07):
The reason I ask, cause I do have clients ask like, well, how, like how long in a day is it multiple days? Like, they're kind of wondering how, what time commitment they have to give to this.
Karen Juster Hecht (11:16):
Yeah. Okay. That, yeah, exactly. Thanks for, for stating that exactly what you mean. Yeah. So typically a mediation session will run between 60 minutes and two hours. Right. Cause if it's less than 60 minutes, it's hard to really get comfortable and start communicating. And if it's more than two hours, I find that people just get burned out. I mean, I have as a litigator, you know, I was sometimes involved in like these all-day sessions right. And people at the end are just exhausted and it's really hard to make good decisions at that point. So usually I keep mediation session to about two hours. And then the number of sessions depends really on the number of issues that there are. So I'd say typical in family law would be maybe between three and 15 sessions, which is kind of a large range. But again, it just depends on how many issues there are. Right. And in family law, the issues could be, you know, around child support and child custody, spousal support, you know, the family home and, and all those kinds of issues. So where the parties have disagreements, well, that's going to take more sessions.
Ryan Lockhart (12:32):
So you typically focus on one particular issue per session.
Karen Juster Hecht (12:35):
Yeah, exactly. So, so going back to when I was talking about the typical first meeting, so after we talk about the ground rules, then I talked to the people about what to expect, like he, here's what we're going to do, and this is what it's going to look like, you know, make sure that I'm answering any questions that come up and then we sort of set an agenda of what the basic issues are. So again, I'll run through those family law issue issues, and then we just start going through them, you know, as the weeks or months go by. And sometimes for example, if like, if it's child's birthday coming up, well, then we need to put that issue towards the top. Right. And we'll talk about that first and then just kind of work our way through the issues as as the weeks go by.
Ryan Lockhart (13:24):
And that's, that's helpful to know that that's how you tackle those issues, because I know there's a lot of issues layered on top of each other. It can be very challenging. So how's mediation working today in the pandemic?
Karen Juster Hecht (13:37):
Well, yeah, that's a good question. Like everything else, right? For pretty much most people in the world. I mean that pandemic came down upon us and really changed a lot of things. I felt lucky because before the pandemic I'd already been doing about 40% of my work via zoom, you know, because people were in a different geographic area or a lot of my work is in the Bay area and because of commuting, right. People just like doing zoom. So of course once the pandemic hit, everything was on zoom. Now I, I do not meet any clients in person at this time. And I think that's how most mediators are working. Zoom, I think it's actually a great platform. It can be a little challenging to sort of read the nonverbal communication in the room, but I feel lucky cause it wasn't a brand new platform for me. You know, another change is that like long all legal fields, right. We'd been dealing with court closures and different ways of filing things and dealing with things. I feel like, you know, every couple of weeks since March, I get a different emergency order from one of the different courts. So yeah, the pandemic been an interesting reality check, I think on all of us.
Ryan Lockhart (14:56):
Yeah. Yeah. You got a headstart on zoom compared to most people. That's good.
Karen Juster Hecht (15:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I liked it. I don't actually know if zoom has is publicly traded, but you know, it might be good to have their stock. I don't know, not my field. So
Ryan Lockhart (15:12):
Not mine either, really, even as a tax attorney, I stay away from that stuff, but I could see how it definitely would work on some of the mediation. I've had some other attorneys I've talked to, that they were skeptical about trying to do mediations virtually, but I've been fairly pleasantly surprised. I mean, obviously there's some horror stories, but you know, those are just going to happen.
Karen Juster Hecht (15:33):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think, unfortunately look in life, there's going to be one horror story or another. So whether it's because of the zoom platform or because of something else, right. There's things that happen. And then as human beings, we learn how to deal with, with the reality or the catastrophe at hand
Ryan Lockhart (15:53):
That's right. So I know mediation is, like I said, popular and becoming more popular. I know courts are even pushing it. Like you said earlier, you get calls from courts on her for an emergency session. So why is mediation even more relevant today than maybe it was even in the recent past?
Karen Juster Hecht (16:14):
Yeah. You know, without without really getting into political events and so forth. I have to say over this last, you know, well, if we can just even look at, since the pandemic, I feel like tensions are so high. Right. And people are so worried about so many things, you know, health jobs, financial, future politics, and people have so many things that they need to express and communication has become difficult. So I, I feel like mediation has a really important role to play. And actually a couple of months ago I was in a zoom training with a cultural mediator. Who's she says world renowned, you know, amazing cultural mediator. And he was really putting out the call to mediators right now to step up and help the world right now, help people communicate. Cause people, everyone has something to say and people need to be heard. So I'm excited about using my my skills this way. And I hope that I can, I can help.
Ryan Lockhart (17:23):
It sounds like you definitely can. Karen. I think it's as important as you just described that mediation has a definite place, not just in the legal community, but outside the legal community as well. In various areas. Cause I, I don't really deal with disputes that often, but is because I always look at these excuses, like, especially if it's like a money dispute, I'm like, well, there's gotta be a way to come to some agreement. There's there should be some middle somewhere that we mediation is the place to find this.
Karen Juster Hecht (17:51):
Exactly. Ryan that's. Yeah. Kind of put that quote on my website. I'm teasing, but yeah, I, I, yours take it. I am, I'm a true believer in mediation and I don't think that there is a place where it can't help. So
Ryan Lockhart (18:09):
That's great. Well, thank you for imparting all that knowledge on us today. So if somebody has any questions or wants to use your services, how can they reach you?
Karen Juster Hecht (18:16):
Yeah. So I'm always happy to talk all things mediation or, you know, any other questions that people have. People can email me off of my website. My email address is Karen@karenjusterhecht.net. My telephone number is 510-210-3796.
Ryan Lockhart (18:36):
And your website is karenjusterhecht.net. Yeah. Perfect. So I will have all that information in the show notes. So if you're listening to this episode and you think that there's some situations that mediation would help you reach out to Karen and see if she can help your situation. Cause I'm, I'm sure she can.
Karen Juster Hecht (18:56):
Thanks Ryan. And thank you so much for having me and having this conversation about mediation, especially like we said right now. Yes.
Ryan Lockhart (19:04):
It's going to be very important. It already is important. It's going to be even more important going forward. And I want to thank you for joining the show today because I had not talked about mediation on the show yet. And so when you mentioned you were willing to come on the show, I was like, this is perfect because mediation is very important. So thank you. Awesome. Well thank you. All right. Well that was Karen Juster Hecht and I'm Ryan Lockhart, your host of, I know a lawyer. Thank you very much for listening. Hope 2021 is got better things for all of us in store. Check out the, any past episode, like I said, on your podcasting apps or at our website and goodbye, everybody take care.